What’s the difference between diversity and inclusion?

- Hello everyone. I am Chris Hyams, CEO of Indeed. My pronouns are he and him, and welcome to the next episode of 'Here to Help.' For accessibility, I'll offer a quick visual description. I am a middle-aged man wearing dark rimmed glasses. I have a black T-shirt and a black zip up sweater and behind me is the North Austin skyline. At Indeed our mission is to help people get jobs. This is what gets us out of bed in the morning and what keeps us going all day and what powers that mission is our people. Here to Help is a look at how experience, strength and hope inspires people to want to help others. For me, every month is Black History Month, but formally February is Black History Month here in the US and in Canada. And to continue our recognition of this observance, my guest today is Yahan Mensah, Associate UX Content Designer at Indeed. Born to Ghanaian parents in Canada, Yahan grew up in Calgary, Alberta. Upon graduating from university, she moved to Toronto with a dream of working in broadcast journalism. She achieved that dream and spent three and a half years working at Bell Media, which housed a network such as MTV Canada, Much Music and etalk News. Yahan joined Indeed in 2020, starting her career in Client Success and eventually moving to the UX Content team. In addition to her role as associate UX content designer, Yahan is the regional co-chair of Indeed's Black Inclusion Group or BIG and advocates for her community by helping others to find their footing in the tech world. Yahan, thank you so much for joining me today.

- Thank you so much for having me Chris. I appreciate it. My name is Yahan. My pronouns are she, her. I have blonde braids, I'm wearing gold earrings and a beige top with a gold necklace and behind me is some greenery and yeah.

- Fantastic. Well let's start where we always start these conversations. How are you doing right now?

- I am doing amazing, thank you.

- Well, that's fantastic to hear. Okay let's dive in. We have a lot to cover, but let's start with your role at Indeed. Can you explain what it is that associate UX content designer does and how you help people get jobs?

- Yeah, so I work on the Enterprise team. I focus predominantly on our IHP product. We essentially help write content and design content for our IHP interface ensuring that our users have a seamless experience whenever they're creating events or during their hiring events and yeah.

- And as I mentioned upfront you started actually in Client Success and made this pivot and I know that for a lot of people it seems sort of like a mystical thing. How do you move into a tech field you know, even within a tech company. Can you talk a little bit about what that transition was like for you and how you got from the Client Success side to the role that you're in today?

- Yeah, definitely. So for me it was all about setting the goal at first, was just figuring out where I wanted to pivot and how I was going to do that. Knowing that I wanted to make a change and I wanted to make a move, I needed people in my corner. So the first thing I did was I actually signed up for a Mentor Connect program and my mentor at the time shout out to Katie Birch. She is based out in Singapore and I worked with her on pretty much establishing my Indeed brand and just kind of learning about how I could put myself out there and how I could tailor my existing job to the job that I wanted. So from there it was meeting and keeping an eye on upcoming roles that were available and really just paying attention to those job descriptions and seeing who was hiring for these roles. Outside of that, I also took some courses in UX just so that I could get the technical side of things and get more understanding of how the job would actually work. And from there I met with pretty much any and everyone in Product, even if they weren't a UX manager or UX content manager. I met with technical product managers, I've met with people with roles that I'd never heard of before just to kind of get a perspective because the thing about Product is we are, we're all working together and having that perspective from different people was absolutely crucial to me. So from then I made the connections. I was lucky enough to essentially get in touch with a lovely Content Design Manager, Yvonne Stull also shout out to her who actually included me on the Content office hours. So I got to essentially see what the role was like by helping UX designers and PMs just kind of establish different recommendations when it came to content and UX design. And I think I worked with them about twice a week while I was doing CS. And later on in the new year last year, that kind of pivoted for a role to be open as an associate and I went for it and here we are. So yeah.

- Fantastic. So one of the things that is interesting in these conversations is to sort of look at formative experiences and what inspired people to take the path that they're on. And I know that you had a particular professor at university that left real mark on you. Can you talk about that experience and how that influenced you?

- Yeah I will never forget. Let me paint the picture for you. It was, let's say spring of 2015 and I was in my last semester of university and we were talking about, our whole entire class was talking about where we wanted to go next. And the thing about coming from a smaller city is that when it comes to the broadcast industry, they let you know that hey, start out small, go to like towns and places that you've never heard of because if you go to the big city, you're not going to find a job. And for me, it was always my dream to move to Toronto and I had let my professor know that upon graduating I wanted to move to Toronto. And he told me and I quote, "If you end up moving to Toronto, you're going to end up working at Wendy's." And right then and there, that was, that was, as we like to say, that was my villain origin story. This is where we're going to go, okay, you think I'm going to end up at Wendy's and no shame to anyone working at Wendy's, but my goal was to work in broadcast journalism and I was going to get there by any way, shape or form. So in that case, I made the connections and I was lucky enough to land an internship with Bell Media, which ended up turning into a job like you'd mentioned. And I remember when I got the internship, I sent him an email and I was like, "Hey, just so you know, I'm in Toronto. I got the internship with Bell Media, I'm actually working for Much Music right now." And he was like, "I knew you could do it." And I was like, "Thank you, thank you." We just, we kept it sweet. So yeah.

- Well, I love that story for a number of reasons, but I just find it fascinating how different people have very different motivation. So for some people the motivation is someone telling you you can do it and then for other people it's telling someone you can't do it. And then it's like, what is the thing that gets you going? So I, it's a great story. Can you share briefly, I know that you had a particular nickname at university. Can you tell that story?

- Yeah, so within my program we had radio shows every single week. And for me, my radio name was DJ 13 and it kind of translated into my nickname of The 13. And the reason why it is The 13 is because to a lot of people, 13 is an unlucky number, but for me it is, it symbolizes against all odds where you know, regardless of it being perceived as unlucky, to me it is something that regardless, I'm in the fight, I'm going to make it against all odds and that's kind of what The 13 symbolizes. So a lot of people have asked me in the past, my social media is always The 13, The 13. They're like, why The 13? It's just, it's not only my lucky number, but it really just kind of embodies who I am as like you think I can't do it, but against all odds I'm going to do it. So yeah.

- So I'd love to talk obviously because, at Indeed we think a lot about jobs and work and we're talking about this you know, career progression here, but also in this context of Black History Month, one of the things that I think is really important is looking at representation in different fields and obviously tech is one that we know pretty famously has some representation issues and you've worked down both media and tech. Can you talk about your experience and what representation looks like in those industries?

- Yeah, definitely. I think specifically with media representation I can speak to Canada, it's a little bit tough to be quite honest. I don't think that until I moved to Toronto I really realized and focused on the fact that there was a lack of representation coming from a place like Calgary, Alberta, where it's very concentrated, there's not a lot of people of color there, versus coming to Toronto, which is literally one of the most diverse, multicultural places in the entire world. And I think it was a little bit of where do I find my footing and do I actually see myself kind of being able to fit in here? And I think that's kind of what prompted my transition out of media was just wanting to find community. And I think transitioning into tech, personally transitioning into Indeed, the first thing that drew me to Indeed was the fact of our inclusion resource groups of having that opportunity to build that type of community. So I think for me, even though in Canada I will say representation is still not where I'd like it to be personally, but every single day, the people that I meet and the people that I work with, even through the screens, it is just so nice to see my people in places. My prime example of Priscilla also being of Ghanaian descent, you have to understand I was like, yes, Priscilla, I'm so like, it's just so nice not only to see someone that looks like you in that type of position, but also someone that shares that same culture with you. I wish I could just share how, how much it made my heart full. So I will say Indeed is doing a great job in terms of representation as a whole, but I would love to see that extended over into Canada for sure.

- And for anyone listening today who's not at Indeed, Priscilla Koranteng is our Chief People Officer and she is from Ghana. And we'll be talking actually about Ghana a little later today 'cause you have a very personal story there. But I'd love to talk a little bit about you know, one of the things that we talk about in this realm of DEI is this idea of bringing your true self to work. And you've talked before about the ideas of perception and projection. Can you share your thoughts on that?

- Yeah, I think it's kind of a, an interesting two-way street when it comes to perception versus projection. You kind of have a mindset of when you come to work, this is how I would like to be perceived and this is how I should be perceived. And then based on your wants and your feelings and how you want to execute your day to day, you also have people who are also projecting. And I feel like when those projections come in, it could alter your own perception of okay, how am I showing up to work? I'll kind of give you an example of, this happened to me a couple years ago where I am on a Zoom call and someone is noticing that, you know, I'm paying attention, I'm paying attention, I'm just, I'm just, whatever's going on the screen, that's what I'm looking at. And I got a message saying, "What's wrong? Are you okay?" And I'm like, I'm just over here existing. I'm just paying attention to the screen. And again, I think it just came from like, I'm, my perception of myself is like, I'm paying attention. I'm you know, I'm paying attention to what's going on the screen, but to this person that's asking me "What's going on?" I kind of take that as why are you projecting a stereotype onto me where I could maybe look a certain way, I could look like I'm upset, but in actuality what's going on in my mind is that I am strictly just focusing on what's happening. So I think it's, when we talk about perception versus projection, it's also a whole thing of self-awareness on both ends. I don't know if that kind of makes sense, but.

- Oh no, absolutely. So in, I guess in that same kind of world in terms of how you respond then to other people's perceptions and projections you know, one of the things that we talk about a lot is this idea of code switching. Can you talk a little bit, and especially if there's any folks listening who don't know what that is, if you could explain what that means and then talk about your experience.

- Yeah, yeah. So code switching, speaking as a Black person, code switching for me is I have myself that my friends and family see, and then I have myself that work and my professional life sees. And the professional side of things is a little bit more toned down because again, I don't want to be perceived as unprofessional when I bring my true, truer self to work in that sense. It's such a complicated topic because I feel like we all have our own perceptions of code switching, but again, I will speak for myself. There's, in order for me to feel safe in a space, I have to bring that different person to work because again, when I come to work, I just want to do my job. I want to have fun and then call it a day. I don't want to offend anyone. I don't want there to be any conflict, I just want harmony. And I think that's where the code switching shows up, where it's like, it's almost like, let me just play it safe so that I don't do the latter. You know? And I think that the version that I have with like my friends and my family, I think I am slowly learning as I've gotten older and as I've gotten more comfortable in my professional space that that version can thrive at work. And I'm really learning to like break out of that shell. And I think the only reason why I feel comfortable enough for it to break out of that shell is because of the community that I have as my foundation. So I know you didn't ask this, but I feel like if code switching could be a thing of being abolished, I think in order for that to happen, foundation needs to be laid of your community of, okay, we got you regardless, like we support you and your authenticity. It's also a lot of self-work. I do a lot of self-work. I go to therapy, I meditate, I write, I do everything. It's a lot of self-work and being comfortable with ourselves. So I'm sorry, I know it kind of went on.

- No, thank you. Thank for sharing that. And look, part of the reason to have these conversations is that this is something that people like me, someone from the majority, straight, cis, white, able-bodied man, I don't carry that cognitive load. I don't sort of walk through life having to think I mean, of course every human thinks a lot about what other people think of them, but it's very different than that I think constant cognitive load, which in these conversations that I've had over time, you know, it's an added layer of effort, exhaustion, it's constant sort of thinking on your feet. And I think the answer clearly is that it would be great if it didn't exist, but because of bias that people experience it is this sort of protective mechanism. So maybe can you talk a little bit about sort of your experience with bias in the workplace that might contribute to this? Because in the you know, what people from the majority might be able to do to become more self-aware, I think a big part of it is actually hearing these stories and trying to develop a more constant understanding and frankly not just you know listening to one conversation or once a month thinking about it, or once a year in February thinking about it. But anyway, there was a long preamble, but I'd love to hear you talk about the sort of experience of bias in the workplace and how that contributes to this feeling, the need to really curate who you are around other people.

- Yeah, yeah, it's unfortunate, but that bias can really affect you mentally. It's affected me mentally. I've had instances where it, me showing up to work has kind of almost been like feeling like I'm being sabotaged, I'll use that. I think that the hardest part about that is having the intentions to literally wanting to come to work and do your job and not play the corporate games, not play the, I have to show up like this to this person so that I can ensure that I get a great performance review or this person doesn't feel uncomfortable around me or there's no animosity on my team or anything like that. I've dealt with instances like that before where it's a bias to me that that came out of nowhere, that there wasn't really a foundation for it. And I think, had I not had the support system that I have, I think I would've sunk, I think I would've literally had to end my employment because it would feel again, like it's, I'm against all odds here and the odds are definitely going to win in that sense. It's so unfortunate again, where it comes back to the self-awareness of like that self sabotage and people either feeling threatened or feeling, I don't even know the right word to use, we'll say feeling threatened in that sense. It's again, it comes down to that corporate game that there's a hierarchy that people do not wish to play. And in my experience, the only way out of it was to have support, was to have advice and to be honest with not only myself, but be honest with those around me and really just go through the motion. I honestly think in my story that's really the only way to get around it. It's unfortunate that you can't force someone to learn something. You can only hope that they take those steps to learn on their own and kind of become self-aware in that sense. You can't control what people do or what people think ever. And I think that corporations, companies, regardless need to provide those resources so that people do have outlets to understand that, okay, maybe I shouldn't be treating this person this way or maybe I shouldn't have this bias at work because this person could be perceiving it in a completely different way than what I'm intending. I think it's literally about the educational piece and just being aware in that sense.

- Hmm. So what do you think the, I use the phrase cognitive load or just like, what is the psychological cost of code switching of having to think constantly about how you might be perceived?

- The psychological cost I think it, especially when it comes to the workplace, it is so heavy because if you think about it, when we spend five days a week at work, eight hours a day, that's a lot of time. And even past five o'clock, you're still thinking about how you're going to execute the next day, how you're going to start the next day or whatever the case may be. It's tough to turn off right at five, we'll say that. And if you think about that load of just being anxious, I think the main psychological damage is the anxiousness. At least for me, that's what I dealt with was constantly being anxious and it was almost like a PTSD feeling of like, oh my gosh, I got to make sure I do this, I got to make sure I do this. And yeah, I think that it's so important for people to understand that maybe person A can easily turn off at five o'clock and it's not that serious and they're good to go, but person B this could literally be affecting them seven days a week, 24 hours a day. And it's, it almost feels like there's no way out of it. And if the only way out of it is to leave, leave the company or take a, or take extra time off or whatever the case may be, I think that I would wish that people would understand how much, how much it is so detrimental that placing biases on people to the fact where they don't feel comfortable enough to show up as themselves, not creating the space for them to show up as themselves. It's a lot, it is a lot, it is mentally draining and it's a lot for sure.

- Well thank you for sharing that. And I know that there's even complexity for like asking you to explain yourself and I just want to be clear that this is you know, we talked about this all beforehand and I'm not trying to put you in a position where I'm asking you to speak for all Black people, which is I know is like another constant thing. It's like oh, it's Black History Month, let's bring on some Black people and talk about what it's like being Black. But I think it is important, especially when you're comfortable talking about your own experience, that the collection of all these conversations might help bring another dimension of understanding to people. So I appreciate you being willing to come and share and talk about this. Since you talked about you know, it is incumbent on companies to understand the experience of their employees and to try to create an environment where people do feel like they can come and be who they are. And the ideal is to try to create a level playing field, not just in terms of opportunities that people are given, but we're, you know, where certain people don't have to work three times as hard emotionally just to show up. And so you think about the things that companies can do, and I'll just throw out the terms 'cause we, I know we talked about this before of you know, inclusion and diversity those are the things that people talk about all the time. And then there's equity and we can get to that. But can you talk about what your feelings about the difference between the words inclusion and diversity and what they mean and how they show up?

- Yeah, definitely. I think walking into an office, I can see that we are diverse. I could see that there's different types of people from different backgrounds everywhere, diversity, that's what I would define diversity as. Now inclusion is on a completely different playing field where I kind of, I know you said we would get to it, but I also kind of bring in the belonging piece of, okay, we could have a diverse company or a diverse office in that sense, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's inclusive of each person in their own cultures or in their own, yeah, in their own cultures we'll say. I think that inclusivity to me means having spaces where people can yes, show up as themselves, but also having a support system of people who also embody parts of themselves where it's not, for example, I'm not going into a meeting with a thought that, okay Chris, you're holding an inclusive space for me as a Black woman, though I appreciate it. I need to have a Black woman in that space in order for it to feel inclusive. It's great that you are here to show your support, but I have to have someone there who embodies either looking like me or embodies some sort of a part of me that understands that, where it's, I don't, what's understood doesn't need to be explained essentially, you know? Yeah, I think that's kind of the difference for me between diversity and inclusion in that sense.

- So I guess then the question is, what are some of the things that companies can do to try to create an inclusive and welcoming environment? One where people feel like they can, so where, what that ideal is? What are the things that come, you know, you just described something very specific, so, but that's, you know, that's one small piece of how you might show up at a meeting. What are, what should we be doing as a company that we're not doing? And what should other companies be thinking about doing?

- I think one thing that companies, if they aren't already, I think inclusion resource groups are like a great first step. I think that's the inevitable. Having spaces where people can come and people can get to know each other and just kind of form their own community. I think that is step one. Step two is educating your teams. I know that at Indeed we've had constant learnings of just ways that people can educate themselves when it comes to creating inclusive environments. And I think things like that have to be brought to the forefront consistently so that it really becomes a part of people's routines. It's not just something where, okay, I'm going to complete this questionnaire, or I'm going to complete this quick learning and then call it a day and then never think about it again. I think it's something that has to be implemented in people's day to days. And I think it's so important, especially for companies that have client facing roles where you're talking to different people on a regular basis, letting people know that having these tools is so important. It's not just about dealing with it within your own workplace, but it's also important, it's also tools that you take to dealing in real life as you travel, as you meet different people, as you just encounter different people you know, it's just, it's tools that go beyond the workplace. So I think that educational piece is absolutely fundamental as well.

- You mentioned travel, which is a reminder about one of the things that I wanted to talk about. So I know in 2023 in Canada, the theme for Black History Month is: Ours to Tell. Which is about this opportunity to engage in open dialogue and learning stories that Black communities in Canada have to tell about their histories, their successes and sacrifices. And I know that you recently took a trip to Ghana to reconnect with your heritage. Can you talk about that trip and what that meant to you?

- Yeah, I'm going to be real. I'm going to try not to cry because every single time I think about this trip, I do get very emotional. So I'm going to try not to cry. I went to Ghana for the first time in December. I spent about three weeks there and the first couple weeks I spent just with family, family I had already met and then also family that I had never met once a day of my life. And that in itself was just probably the most beautiful part. Going to my parents' hometowns and like even just driving down the street knowing that my grandparents were probably driving down these streets, my ancestors were down these streets. Just feeling that sense of connection was so overwhelming, yet so beautiful to me. Near the end of my trip, I actually met up with a travel group called The Roaming Republic, and essentially this travel group is geared to bringing people from the diaspora to Africa or just to trips in general and just creating community through travel. And the great thing about this trip was pretty much everyone were strangers. I say this where I was like, I felt like I'm on a reality show because I don't know any of these people. And some of us were rooming together and we had spent eight days together just exploring Ghana and yeah, there was a lot going on. So I'd say that trip in itself, one of the main pivotal moments was we had a lot of African Americans from all over the US and also a lot of people from the UK and then I think there was about five of us from Canada, and we went to the Ashanti Palace, which was essentially in Kumasi, which is a town in Ghana, and a lot of people can trace their lineage back to the Ashanti tribe. So when we got there, we got dressed, they gave us kente cloth, they gave us just all of us outfits to wear as we walked to the palace. And when we got to the palace, we were greeted by chiefs that were just like all sitting around. They were playing drums and there was dancing. It was such a beautiful ceremony. And this was actually the naming ceremony. And the most beautiful part about it was a lot of the African Americans that were on the trip, they said that they would no longer be called their born names, that they were taking their Ashanti names just based on the connection to their ancestors. I thought that was literally the most beautiful part of the entire trip, though I have an African name, I'm not from the Ashanti tribe. So funny enough, when I got my name, my name was, my Ashanti name is actually very similar to my current name, Yahan. It's actually my Ashanti name would've been, Yaa, because I was born on a Thursday. So it was just beautiful to see that everyone was able to take in those names and really feel the connection. And I was grateful enough to kind of share that moment. So yeah, it was a beautiful, beautiful time for sure.

- So at Indeed you know, we've talked about some of the work that we're doing here and I mentioned it upfront. In addition to your day job, you're also the regional co-chair for our, for BIG, our Black inclusion group. Can you talk about what inspired you to join?

- Yeah, yeah. So as I said, the moment that I came to Indeed BIG was right on my radar. I wanted to get in as quickly as possible and just start making friends and start building community. And just more so recently from last year, becoming co-chair again, it was based on my story at Indeed I kind of wanted to be another pillar for other people coming into Indeed, especially Black people coming to Indeed and just trying to foster that community and uphold that community. So that's been kind of the main, my main motivation of being in BIG.

- Another BIG is launching a program explicitly called Africa to the World. Can you tell us about this program?

- Yeah, so kind of inspired by my Africa trip, especially with The Roaming Republic. I loved how their idea was bringing the diaspora together and exploring the continent and going to different places. So with that, I wanted to bring that opportunity to Indeed to kind of learn about that connection and bridge the gap between the diaspora and the continent. Figuring out ways that we can invest in property out there, how we can travel to the continent. I know a lot of people have wanted to go and it's, maybe it's a question of I don't have anyone to go with, or I don't know how I can make that happen. This is Africa to the World is going to answer all of those questions. So yeah, we're looking forward to it.

- So can you just talk very briefly about your role as co-chair? So there are many people who are a member of BIG and they're able to be a part of this community. What are you getting specifically out of your leadership role and how is that helping you to feel and experience that sense of belonging?

- Yeah, I think the main thing I'm getting out of this role currently is a lot of knowledge, a lot of experience when it comes to just the differences that we have within our own communities. And I'm kind of taking that as my own challenge of like, okay, how do I bridge that gap? How do I make this easier? How do I, how do I create such a prominent community where everyone, every Black person at Indeed not only feels seen, but feels heard in that sense and feels that they have a support system and feels that they have a community to lean on. How do I create that, how do I promote that? How do I let people know that that actually exists here? So that, that same feeling I had when I first joined Indeed, that I can share that feeling where it's like, if anything is going left in your career or if you're feeling stressed, burned out, or whatever the case may be, like letting people know that yes, Indeed has great resources, but you also have a community and you also have a community of people that may have shared those exact same experiences with you. So my main motivation is again, how do I share that and how do I promote that to people. So if anything that's aside from my trip to Ghana, that's also kind of what fueled Africa to the World was again, just bridging the gap between the diaspora, especially being Canadian, Black Canadian, I'm really trying to bridge that gap between the US and Canada knowing that we have so many similarities. We have a history that is so similar as well. We share that history, we share it, so let's attack it together. And if that means educating, if that means hearing stories, then let's do it. But again, I guess for me the main thing is the prominence of the community and strengthening that community as well.

- Well, as we come to a close here, I always ask the same final question. And so I'd love to hear your thoughts on, given everything that we've been through over the past three years through the pandemic and everything that has occurred since then, which has been an incredibly challenging time for people, but what in that experience has left you with some hope for the future?

- Hmm. I think within the pandemic, I feel like we all had an opportunity for self-reflection. And I feel like as it being 2023 now, this is the year where we're putting all of that into action. I feel that people have felt, we've experienced and now it's, we've set the goal and let's go and execute. So I am hopeful that we'll continue that journey of self-love, self realization, and just continuing the path, continuing on and educating others and strengthening our communities for sure.

- Well Yahan, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for sharing your experience and all that that entails. It means a great deal to get to see things through that lens and thank you for everything that you do at Indeed to help people around the world get jobs.

- Amazing, thank you.