What does the future of Indeed leadership look like?
In this episode of Here to Help, Indeed CEO, Chris Hyams speaks with Lisa Ramirez, his former Chief of Staff and newly appointed SVP of Operations at Indeed.
As we approach two years of working from home, Chris and Lisa discuss the lessons learned during the pandemic, what worked well and what did not and how Indeed is preparing to succeed in the years ahead.
Ramirez’s commitment to a beginner’s mindset has seen her excel in her career — and her non-traditional approach to hiring has helped her build creative and high-performing teams.
- Hello everyone. I am Chris Hyams, CEO of Indeed, and welcome to the final installment of Here To Help for 2021. Today is December 13th. We're on day 650 of global work from home, and this is episode number 71 of Here To Help. At Indeed, our mission is to help people get jobs. This is what gets us out of bed in the morning, and what keeps us up at night, and what powers that mission is our people. Here To Help is a look at how people's experience and stories inspire them to want to help others. Today is a very special episode for me. One that I've been looking forward to for some time, and even before she knew that she would be a guest, I knew I wanted to have Lisa Ramirez on Here To Help. Lisa joined indeed in August of 2019 as my Chief of Staff, and she has been side-by-side with me, at first in person, and then virtually since March of 2020, through every single challenge, success, brainstorm, debate, global event, and individual conversation. My job has been completely transformed from getting to work with Lisa. A huge part of her job is what you might think of as being behind the scenes, but that's changing right now. Last month, Lisa joined Indeed's senior leadership team as our Senior Vice President of Operations. I'm excited for all of you to get the opportunity to get to know Lisa a bit. Lisa, thank you so much for joining me today.
- Thank you so much for having me, Chris, and I almost left the mute button on, just so that you could say, Lisa, you're on mute, just to really give people a feel for our meetings over the past two years.
- So, well, let's start off where we always start these conversations. How are you doing today?
- Well, you know, I think I mentioned this to you just a minute ago, but if you had asked me about an hour before we started, I would have said, well, I'm doing pretty good. I had a great weekend. And then, you know, we had a pretty big meeting this morning, where I had to really look at myself and some things that I had done, and take ownership of a problem that I created. And so that's always a just great way to start a Monday, is telling the whole team actually the reason why everyone's upset is really something that I did wrong. But, you know, I am a huge believer in that kind of stuff. So it was a good way to remind myself that we're all human on this Monday morning. How are you doing this morning?
- I am doing very well. What you just described is something that I have done over, and over, and over again. And frankly, it was great that it was you and not me today. But I'm really looking forward to having this conversation, and I'm really looking forward to talking about some stuff that maybe we don't talk about very much as an organization, and I think folks are going to get a lot out of it. So let's start with your current job. So you are, as of last month, Indeed's Senior Vice President of Operations. What would you say you do around here? What does that job entail?
- That's a great question. I had a thought to maybe ask you, but actually, really my job, and we talked about this, you know, last week, what is really to enable Indeed to accomplish its vision and mission. So my job is just to make sure that everything is working at its most efficient and most effective so that it all Indeedians can really help people get jobs, and put job seekers first. And so I need to be focused really at all times on anything that's getting in people's way. I think one aspect of leadership is that people sort of tend to think that you tell everyone what to do, and really we need to spend all of our time just removing obstacles so that the people on the front lines can do what they know needs to get done. And so that's really how I see my job, is just making it possible for everybody else to do theirs.
- One big part of what Here To Help is all about is what I like to think of as a people's origin story. So how, as I say in the beginning, how their experiences and stories inspire them to want to help others. Can you talk a little bit about your early formative experiences, and how you became who you are?
- So there, it's a great question. There are a couple of things that I think are pretty critical to my story, and, you know, it really starts with my parents. My mom is a teacher. She will always be a teacher. She does not get paid to be a teacher right now, but she will always be a teacher. My dad's an engineer. And in my dad's family, hard work is sort of the essential ingredient to your worth. And so he's one of 13, and the thing that you know in our family is whether or not someone is a hard worker. So when someone comes into the family, they're basically judged by, like, are they helping? Are they not helping? Are they working, are they not? And so very, very formative lessons. You know, we still talk about when Kristin brought one upper to the family party, and he didn't really work very hard, and we'll talk about that forever. My family also loves a good story. So you will hear lots of good stories throughout. I've learned the art of a good story pretty early and often. And my mom as a teacher is also just, not only is she always teaching, but she's always helping. So she ran a GED, which is the high school equivalency program in New Orleans. And every day she would come home, I would listen to her stories of the people. And it wasn't just, she just wasn't a teacher, she was also helping them get their first job and really think through their lives. And growing up, we always had an aunt or an uncle living with us. And they would come to our house right after graduating high school, and my parents would get them ready for college, and they would get them their first jobs. And so I learned this, like, deep sense of like hard work, but extreme help. And so those are the two things that I sort of have taken with me, is that, you know, you work really hard. You work hard to gain privilege, if you will, and I have been, I have a very privileged existence, but then you always give back, and you're always looking for the person that you can help. So, you know, I remember vividly my mom, there was a child at school that was going to have a, was not going to have a great Christmas. And so we shopped, we wrapped all the presents, we put them in a garbage bag and set them at that person's house so that the parents could have a great Christmas for their kids. And all of those things really stick out to me and really guide who I am today. So I definitely credit my parents. And this is something that he now credits himself for, but I also moved a lot when I was a kid. So I was born in Alabama, I went to elementary school in New Orleans, I went to middle school in East Bay, San Francisco, high school in Houston, and college in Austin. And with each successive move, I pitched the most royal fits that you have ever seen a daughter pitch. But, you know, I can look back and see that each of those moves added something to my life, along with making me a lot more adaptable.
- Also I think a lot of those, thank you for sharing that. I think a lot of those themes are going to come through in the rest of the conversation here. So let's talk a little bit about you. You came to Indeed in August of 2019 as my Chief of Staff. I'd never had a Chief of Staff before. It was a nine month long search. I think I interviewed 27 people, and it wasn't until we met that, and actually it was our mutual friend, Cindy Lowe, who sent me an email saying, this is the person you're going to hire. And so along the way, I sort of, I figured out what a Chief of Staff does, I guess, through us working together. Can you talk a little bit about what that job is, 'cause it's not the same, not only at different companies, but there's multiple chiefs of staff at Indeed, and you're all different in different ways. So what was your experience joining Indeed, and how would you say that you approach this role?
- Well, you say it's different in different places, and different organizations, and different people. It's different every day. So I think, you know, the job when I started and the job when I finished were pretty different roles, but, you know, I look first and foremost at my, my job was, and I think we've talked about this. My job was to make you look great, to make you look successful, to accomplish what Indeed needed to accomplish, and honestly, to have no one know who I was. So I was, you know, a huge part of the way that I looked at the job was how to create success for everybody, but not have to have credit for it. And so that's really the focus that I brought to the role. But one of the things that I thought was really important is that when, you know, people come to the CEO a lot, and they're pretty nervous about, you know, their presentation, they want it to be perfect. And I spent a lot of time really coaching people through elements that I thought would make their work more successful and be more aligned with you, but also coaching people through the idea that they needed to bring you a perfect product. You by nature are, you love to co-create, and you love to be a part of building whatever is happening at Indeed. And so I would watch people spend just, you know, inordinate amounts of time trying to create perfection that they would unveil, and it would be a ta-da moment, and everything, you know, the clouds would part and birds would sing, and that isn't what you love. You love to see the whole thing. And so, you know, I really viewed my role as, you know, not only helping you be successful, but helping the people in our organization be successful. And so the job on any given day could be, I joke with people a lot and, you know, you could be sitting in a board meeting, and you be trying to figure out how we're going to get lunch for this group of people, or squeeze a meeting in. like it's the most, it calls for really high level thinking, and really, really, you know, in the minutia. And both are extremely important when you think about running an organization like that. You have to think about the big picture, but you also have to think about, you know, the person that needs help on that particular day. One of the great joys of the job is just all the people I get to meet, and help, and coach along the way. That's probably the best part of my day, but it also means that I, you don't have a lot of time for being thoughtful, or like scheduling out your own stuff, because you're really thinking about, so much of your time and energy is thinking about, you know, the chief and the staff. I think I always like to explain, you know, that part of the job is the chief part. It's the making sure that the person that you're working most closely with is, you know, is productive, and efficient, and effective, and happy. And then the other part is the team, the staff, and the folks that are a key part of it. And, you know, one of I think the things that you probably found about me is that I am really into creating a sense of team. And so I really want everybody on the SLT, or everybody, you know, at the VP level or, you know, I want everybody to feel ownership and investment in the mission. 'Cause it takes all of us to get it done. There's not one person, and none of us can have all the ideas. Although I do have many ideas, as you know. But they're always better, you know, if the team is working on them together.
- So we started off the conversation with you talking about having to own up this morning to something that you feel like you screwed up, and we've talked about this a lot, but my experience over many years is that the people who are the best colleagues that I've ever worked with also happened to be their own toughest critics. And so you're certainly, you excel in this area. Can you talk a little bit about your experience of looking at yourself through this critical lens, and how that's maybe served you, and how maybe it doesn't serve you as well? And I'm like that as well. But I know that that's an important part of your experience.
- It is, but I will. So I do use a pretty critical lens on myself. And the thing that I often come to, you know, in a situation like this morning is I think about, oh, this is not going well. And then I think about what was my part. What could I have done differently in this situation to create a better outcome? And the very best retrospective I've ever been a part of, the team and I sat down, and I use this brainstorming technique that Art Markman, who's at UT, came up with, where it's sort of suited to introverts. So you write, everybody writes and draws, and so instead of brainstorming out loud, you do this. But what I asked everybody to think about is what is the thing that I could have done differently in this situation to avoid the outcome that we had. And the head of our production support at the time, and all of these folks came to me later, and they said, oh my gosh, I was so nervous going into that retro. You know, I was afraid it was all, it was going to be like, oh, so-and-so did such and such. And because we all took the lens of what could I have done better, we actually got this amazing outcome. And then everybody felt really good about it because it wasn't we're looking for somebody to blame. So in general, that is the approach I do tend to take. Now you have been the recipient of several of my own reviews of what I could have done differently. So, you know, we had a talk by Daryl Davis in New York. And so you and I went to New York. I am an amoeba, I like to pack as much, like I basically expand to the space I'm given. So I had packed your schedule full of, like, you're going to meet with these people, and then these people, and then these people, and it was a great event, but I found at least 20 things that I thought, you know, I could have done better. And so I wrote you a note. I shared that with some folks that I was mentoring, and their response was a little, like, this is insane. The level of, 'cause I felt like the chairs could have been better, and the scheduling could have been better. But I think if you don't, you know, and there were some things that went great. The feel of the event was awesome, Daryl was amazing, like there were all of these things that went great, but what I'm always focused on is what did I learn from what didn't go great, 'cause we're going to have another one. Granted, we then worked from home for two years, so that was a little, some of my lessons learned have not come into, I haven't used them quite yet. But that's really the way that I think about it. And what's been great about working with you is just the extreme honesty of, yeah, these things could have been better, and why in the world are you worried about this thing? So I think, you know, in addition to the looking at yourself with a critical eye, I think having great counsel that can say, that is a great thing to worry about, this is not a great thing to worry about, is also super helpful. So I am definitely a extremely independent person, but when it comes to work and life, I do not go it alone. So we can definitely talk more about that.
- So one offshoot of this though is that you're incredibly hard on yourself, but you're also an unbelievably committed supporter of other people. And I can't, you know, I can't express to the people listening right now the number of times that I have sent an email to Lisa saying, hey, this person is great, could you just talk with them for 30 minutes and just see what's up, and then a month later they have a new job. And that happens over, and over, and over again. And clearly you talked about the commitment from your family to want to give back, but can you talk about what it means for you to be a mentor and a supporter of other people?
- I am. A friend of mine. I'll start a little bit. A friend of mine passed away earlier this year, and one of the things that I commented about him is that he's a super fan. And what it meant was, and his name is Chris. And when Chris was your fan, he just was 100% behind you. And so he was, you know, just like with his sports teams, he would cheer you on, but then he would also give you tough criticism, you know? And so say like, hey, you know, you could have done that better, or that kind of thing. And so that's really my approach, is, you know, I look, when I see people that need help, I dig in in a way that is not just surface. So I'm interested in, you know, a lot of times people will say like, oh, I'm interested in doing X or Y, but I spend a lot of time trying to understand why they think that is a good next step. And I really try to understand, you know, what else might be out there, and what else they should think of, because I think it's hard sometimes to think of the best thing for yourself. And so, you know, part of my approach is really to try to see something different that other people may not see. And so I've used this approach sort of over and over again, to find really amazing, hidden talent. I had an analyst that was working for me, and at one point, and I would ask him, hey, can I see, could you run this data for me? And I would get back the data, but I would also get, like he would set up a weekly recurring email that would deliver the updated data, you know, like every week. And he did not have a degree, he did not have the pedigree that you would expect, but he was so smart. And so I have found over and over again, that if I look past whatever appears to be on the surface, I have found amazing, interesting people, that just in many cases need a good introduction, a good question or two asked about, like, is that really what you want to do? And do you like this, or do you like this? So part of it is just spending time with people. Part of it is just I absolutely love to see people succeed. It's like the best thing in the world, and I find I get so much out of it. So it's a little bit selfish, but, and I'm always a little more excited when it's someone who may not have, you know, a super traditional background, who might not have the chance to sort of shine on their own. If I can get them introduced to someone, to a job, to something, I will do it. I will also tell you that I have also once tanked someone's job offer, because I thought that the company I'd gotten this person set up with an interview, that everything was going great. And they called and said, oh, we'd like to talk to you about the person. And it was pretty evident about five minutes in that there was I think some racism involved, I think there was some classism involved, and I got so belligerent in my reference call that I had to call the person and say, I think I just tanked this job for you. I don't think they're going to give you an offer because I was so mad at the way that this person was asking questions. And so luckily she did get an offer. She also turned it down because it was pretty clear what was happening. So it's really interesting, because I'm not a thoughtless cheerleader. I'm really interested in understanding people and what would put them in the best position to succeed, which is not always what they sort of want or think would be the best.
- After you'd been at Indeed for about a year, we had a conversation about what you really want to do with your career, and your time here, or anywhere. Can you tell a little bit about that story and what it is that you really want to focus on?
- Yeah, it definitely needs to start with the fact that it was my one-year anniversary, and you had emailed my husband, Randy, who by the way is a critical member of this particular operation. So whether that's helping me set up the Zoom lights, or, you know, coaching me through a speech, he's definitely my secret weapon. But Randy's comment back to you was like, oh, you should give her a handwritten letter. And I think he was thinking like a nice card. He gives me great cards. And what arrived was a, it had to be three to four handwritten full page letter, which was the kindest thing that any boss has ever done for me, because what was really special about it was that you demonstrated it in that that you really saw me, and what I was bringing to the table. And it's often that we're so busy that we don't really see each other. We don't really see what we're doing. And then you asked, you know, and I want to understand what you're getting out of this. And so I thought about it a lot. I thought, you know, like, let me make up some great job title. I mean, big thing. And I realized that there wasn't necessarily a job title or something that I wanted. What I really wanted was to make Indeed a great place for women to work. And so that's what I told you. And I even said, and I have no idea how that's going to happen, but that's what I want to do. And so you were so gracious in saying, okay, let's work on that together! I really not only appreciate the lovely letter that you gave me, which was just, you know, far more meaningful than any material item could have been. But I also appreciated the fact that you were interested in what I wanted to accomplish, and also open to my nontraditional suggestions of what that might be.
- So I know it's sort of an obvious question, but can you talk about why that's important. What it is that led you to that. of all of the things that you could say, why is that the thing that you want to do?
- Well, I just truly believe that when we can all come to work and contribute in a meaningful way, it's just a far more powerful situation. But to be clear, you know, I've been a woman in the workforce for over 20 years, and I've had really varying degrees of experience. When I started in consulting, there were a lot of women for me to look up to. I had great mentors that were all women. And then as I got into FinTech, financial services, that wasn't the case. And so it was, there were some very obvious things, like, you know, a lot of stuff happened at the golf course. A lot of stuff happened over, you know, scotch across from the office. Some stuff happened at places I didn't even want to go to. And so it was really clear that I had to sort of, there were going to be some places that I couldn't participate, but yet, you know, I was doing just as much work. I was doing, contributing in very similar ways to the men that I was around. One particularly interesting time, and, you know, folks talk about microaggressions, and sort of the impact that what people says to us has on us. I probably take it a little differently because it just gets me fired up. But I was in Washington DC with my colleague, Kimberly, and we had just gone through probably the hardest negotiation I have ever experienced. I mean, we are talking, we did the superwoman pose before we walked in. We nailed it. We came back to the law firm that we were working with, and the senior partner looked at the two of us and said, you all didn't even get a chance to go shopping, did you? And in that moment, all of that work was just completely minimized in this moment of, you know, we had gone, we had worked our tails off. And so one of the things that I noticed when I got to Indeed, and you and I talked about this, is that I would see women's names on presentations and then someone else would deliver that information. And I pointed it out a couple of times, and I would always follow up with the person who clearly did the work, and say, I'm just curious why you weren't the speaker in that particular situation. And so I think it's so important in everything that we do to make everybody feel that they're a part of the conversation, that they're a part of the work, and that they have opportunities. And so that's really important. I don't know that you know this, but I read 'Wolf Pack' by Abby Wambach, and I read it right before the February leadership offsite. And I gave it to every woman that was a VP and above, because I think there are so many great lessons in that book about really showing up for each other, being there for each other. It's sort of, you know, it's something that I've learned is important along the way. And I've learned that it's not, we're far from solving it across the board.
- It's probably clear to anyone who's listening here that self reflection, self inquiry, self examination are things that are important to you. So you went through a process a little while back, having a 360, which is something that we do for folks in leadership here and at different levels of the organization, and started working with a coach. Can you talk a little bit about that experience?
- I can. One of the things that's so important about admitting mistakes is that if you, I feel very much that if I understand what's wrong, I can own fixing it. And so I'm always about, you know, not only understanding what mistake was made, but then owning the fix. And that goes all the way back to, I'll take a slight diversion. This will not shock you. It goes all the way back to me putting the wrong phone number on a communicator, on a letter that went out to I think hundreds of thousands of people early in my career. It was supposed to be for our call center, and it rang to some company in Argentina, I believe. And I was devastated. I was in tears. And the CTO of our company called me, and he said, Lisa, I once took down the entire British banking system. This is nothing. You will get over this, everything will be fine. We just need to reroute that phone number to our call center. And so I got on fixing it. And from then on, I really realized that, like, if there is a problem and you own fixing it, you become unafraid to fail because you know that you can fix it. If you spend all your life trying to be perfect, you will never succeed, because perfection doesn't exist. It's like the horizon, it doesn't, you don't ever get there. And you don't try things, because you only do the things that you can be really, really good at. And so all that to say that in the 360 process, I received feedback that I found deeply disturbing, because I just didn't think it was me. And so specifically, and anyone who knows me has heard this a million times, but it said that I was timid, and passive, and very behind the scenes. And, you know, and so I copied and pasted it, and sent it to my old boss, Chuck. And I said, look, I can change! Because I've always been known as being pretty brash and outspoken. He suggested I was being punked, and that it was someone else's 360. But upon reflection, what I realized was that that's how I was showing up at Indeed. It wasn't who I was, but it was really how I was, it was really how I had, you know, taken on the job as Chief of Staff. And, you know, some early feedback had been to like, really just, you know, like be quiet, listen. And so I did it. And then I really thought, is this a place for me to work? And so I was walking with my friend, Megan, and I was going over, like, oh, I've, you know, I've really changed who I am, And I'm just not sure that this is like, this can be, maybe it's just not the right place for me. And Megan just said, this is BS. She just called me out on it, and said, you're really good at being a chief of staff, You're really great at this job, And you work for a great company. And I thought, that's all really true. And so then I started working with my coach, Elle, and it's really transformed things for me. So one of the things was, like, I had definitely gotten into my own head about the whole situation, and thinking like, oh, I've just, I've changed myself, and this is such a problem. And it wasn't. That was all manufactured. That was the story I told myself. I think you talked about your own fake news, right? That was what I had invented. And the truth was that, you know, the organization was totally open to hearing what I had to say. Good, bad, and indifferent. And it really, you know, both the 360, which was an amazing process, and the subsequent intense 10 weeks of coaching that I went through really helped me dig so much deeper than I ever had into some of the way that I lead. My coach made me fill in the blank. Like I lead, I lead by, or, you know, my power comes from. Talking about power, that was not something that I necessarily felt comfortable with, but I explored so much, and got so much deeper than I ever had. I now give her name to everyone, because I really wished that I had done, you know, that kind of level of 360 and coaching so much earlier in my career. Like that would have been really remarkable to have had, that level of depth and understanding of myself, and my, you know, both my reactions to people as well as the way that I was showing up. And I'll tell you this one story that I think you'll appreciate, in that. At one point, Elle is explaining to me that there were these phases and discernment, I was just supposed to do nothing. I was supposed to really allow, like, you know, sort of things to happen, or for the universe to reveal itself. And so I said, okay, so am I supposed to, like, I'm supposed to be quiet? And she's like, no, no, no. It's like nothing. You're not supposed to do anything. And I said, okay, so I'm supposed to meditate? She said, no, it's not about meditation. I'm supposed to walk? Like, no, no, no, no, no, it's none of those things. And I was like, I don't have words for this thing called nothing. Like I just realized that there was nothing in me that could just do nothing, you know? And like I said, hard work is really important to me. I had my first job at 11, I was a paper carrier for the San Ramon Valley Times. I got up every morning at 5:30 and delivered papers so that I could go to space camp. So I have literally been working, and sort of thinking and moving for so long that I just said, Elle, that is, I just don't know what you're talking about. And so she's been super helpful in helping me slow down and really be much more thoughtful about what's happening, how I'm reacting to it, and then what that means going forward.
- You know, anyone who gets to know you at all, gets to understand pretty quickly how important your family is to you. And, you know, you're all about Mo, and big guy, and Randy, but of course, the sort of center of all that is your amazing daughter, Marley, who is a force of nature and clearly will be running the world someday. So one of the things, and I think millions of people went through this experience, but I got to, my kids are older, so I didn't have this experience during the pandemic, but in the middle of all of this, which was doing an incredibly difficult job which got way more difficult because nobody knew what we were doing, and we were figuring all this stuff out. And at the same time, like millions of people all over the world, you had to figure out how to run a school in your house. And so can you talk about being a parent in the middle? I mean, you're a hard worker, you have a big job, you have a lot of stuff going on, and this is, you know, a central part of who you are as person. And so how do those things work together?
- Well, in the spirit of admitting failure, I learned very distinctly during this time that I am not a good teacher. And so in, you know, we went to work from home and Marley was still going to school. And so I was working all day. She was going to school. I was still working out, like, and it was sort of this fantasy land of time. And then they came home from school. And Marley is so social, and she's also dyslexic. So for her, school is really, really hard, and she goes for the social. She goes because she really enjoys being with her friends. And so we basically ripped away from her every defense mechanism she has for this thing that's really hard for her. And so she was just stuck with school and no social, and a mom that was working quite a bit. And so we did everything. We moved this desk upstairs and she sat next to me. We did Zooms together. We did, okay, that didn't work. I mean, I felt like the pandemic was just move furniture around for a while, 'cause we just were trying to find the optimal configuration. And then when school was going to start back, and we somehow cobbled it together through the summer. At one point, you and I looked at each other and said, we both have these girls that could really use something, you know, use someone. And so I asked your daughter, Maisie, if she would meet with Marley just once a day. And then I learned that Marley had been hiding around the house and asking Maisie like, guess where I am, and it turned out she was in my dirty clothes. And so the moment where you realize that your boss's daughter has seen your, you know, dirty underwear, you've kind of lost. Like, that's it. Like, that's sort of the point at which you're like, okay, anything goes here. Like, we're just trying to make it through. And then I really, you know, wanted her to have a good, you know, so there were things like we, you know, we went to my parents' house for several weeks at a time so that she could be around my parents, and that she would have a little bit more socialization. We did start a pod school. I checked off head of school as another career aspiration I am not suited for. Hiring teachers, you know, managing parents, and schedules, and all that was just not great for me, and so we sent her back to school early. But even in that we were managing, you know, school only went until noon, and then we needed someone to pick her up, and then we needed, you know, and she needed tutoring. And so, actually when I talked to people about it, and then my grandfather died and she couldn't go back to school. When I think about it, I get a little bit stressed because of every thing that we did. In the moment, I just kept going, but when I really reflect, it was awful. And I get overwhelmed by just the sheer amount of change, and sort of, and so it's been really great to have her back in school and activities. So she swims, she does volleyball, she's now playing basketball, and she does acting. And I will say that one sort of like port in the storm was that her amazing acting teacher, Alana Adderly, kept going. So she did class by Zoom, and then she did, we called it, she calls it Broadway in the Backyard. And so she would show up and do small classes of kids that were already kind of podded up. In that alone, so we had some really critical touch points throughout it all that really helped us make it through. A really great nanny, Brooke, who took her places. But you and I talked about this, one of the things I realized was that I got kind of disconnected from her in all of that. And so at the beginning of this school year, I wrote you a note and just said, I am always taking Marley to school. I have to move meetings around, I will. I will make it work, but this is my commitment. And, you know, of course you wrote back, I had a laundry list of things in that email, and the one thing that you responded to was like, 100% on, you know, on adjusting the schedule around Marley. And that was really critical, but the other thing that I do with her is, and this is really important to me, is that she's really included in my work life, just as much as I am in her extracurricular life. And so when we were working, when the team was working on the Super Bowl ad, she saw all the various cuts. She did suggest that she might have been a better singer than Christian Singleton, which I let her know is not in the cards. But as you know, she does come up with Indeed jingles quite a bit. So her latest one--
- Just heard one last week.
- One last week, she recorded it in the car. She's available anytime, Jennifer Warren. But I think it's really helpful for her to not just see me work, but to have some sense of what I'm doing. And so I do let her know when it's a good day, I let her know when it's not been a great day. And she offers helpful things like, you know, I'll say it's been a particularly challenging day, and she goes, mom, you wanted a challenge. That's why you left that other job. You've wanted this challenge. And so I always find her for feedback, is what I like to call it, really, really helpful. But it's also part of, you know, the way that I live life is that, like, when you get me, you get my dad, big guy, you get Mo, you get my sisters, Amy and Rebecca, who are just amazing support system. You get Marley, you get Randy, you get the whole package, because my sister gave us a T-shirt once that says, don't mom alone. And that's really kind of how I live life, is as a team effort, so.
- And you just dropped off your Christmas card, which is signed team Ramirez. So it's definitely, definitely a team effort.
- It is, it is a team effort. And actually, you know, that really came from, so just for everybody's awareness, we call our family team Ramirez. Everything, like we have shirts, everything is around this concept of team. And that's because my husband and I were engaged, and something particularly challenging was happening, and he just looked at me and he said, we're a team. Like this is, it's you and I. And from that moment forward, I felt, you know, when you're on a team, you just feel like you can accomplish so much more. And so we actually, like everything with our wedding, everything since then has been team Ramirez, but the underlying thing there is that that's because that is the way that we live our life, and that's the way that we approach it. And it's just really important, you know, to sort of always ground ourselves in that.
- Well, we could go on for a long time, but I'm going to wrap this up here with the question that we'd like to close with, which is, is there anything in your experience since the start of the pandemic that has left you optimistic for the future?
- Yeah, I, well, you know, there are some things that I just really think that we might have learned, and I just hope that we take advantage of those lessons. And so when I think about some of the artifice that we've just sort of melted away. So some of the filters that we had to say what success looked like and what success wasn't. So I hope we continue to knock those down, and really look past that. I hope that we take the data from that time when no one was going anywhere and use that to really think about how we treat the planet, 'cause I think, you know, when you think about we're data-driven decision makers, I hope that we could really take that moment in time, that great experiment. I'm hopeful that we've started to realize how essential childcare and education is to the future of our economy. When childcare and education doesn't work, the economy basically grinds to a halt, and I hope that we really take that so seriously. And I hope that opportunities that opened up in this moment for people continue. I hope we, you know, really listen to frontline workers when we think about the past. And I sort of mentioned this to you earlier, but I hope I never have to go to a grocery store ever again. That's an experience that I would love to leave. Oh, there was one other thing I was thinking about, is that I love, I hope we really normalize the use of masks when we're sick. Like, I love, it's been so phenomenal to have been in this mask wearing socially distanced mode, where, you know, where we aren't catching colds all the time. And I think that would be a really fabulous thing to continue.
- Well, thank you for sharing all that. Thank you for this whole conversation, but really thinking, you know, I had a chance after hearing all these stories to get to meet a big guy at a performance of Marley's awhile back, and he pulled me aside and said, you know what you got to do with Lisa? Just keep her busy. So if big guy, I'm sure is listening to this, I'm doing my best. I think it's working. But I just want to say thank you, because working with you has certainly changed my entire relationship with work in the most profound way of anyone that I've ever worked with. And whatever's going on in Indeed, that is working. You're a huge part of that. I'm super excited for your new role, and for you to step out of being behind the scenes and onto the leadership page on Indeed. And I'm looking forward to the next many years of working together. So thank you, Lisa.
- Thank you, Chris. And I really appreciate, you know, it wasn't just the letter, but I definitely feel more seen and valued than I really ever have in my career. And so I so appreciate the fact that you've taken the time to, you know, we've spent a lot of time together, but that you've taken the time to really get to know me much, much more deeply than just, you know, the work product. And so I really appreciate that.
- This was fantastic. Thank you, Lisa, for being a part of it. And thank you to everyone who has helped get Here To Help off the ground, and continue to run. Aidan McLoughlin, first and foremost, has been our producer from the very, very start. David Hartstein, who does an extraordinary job of all of putting this together and releasing it to the outside world. And Jacob Bennett and Ed Blizniak, who are here pretty much every week, just making sure that you can all see and hear everything, and that recordings get up in time, and, you know, we just have an unbelievable team behind all of this. Hopefully it looks easy, but it's not. But thanks everyone who's a part of this. Thank you for joining. Thanks for your questions. And we'll see you next year on Here To Help.