How can women ensure they're being paid fairly?

- Hello, everyone. I am Chris Hyams, CEO of Indeed. My pronouns are he and him, and welcome to the next episode of Here to Help. For accessibility, I'll offer a quick visual description. I am a middle-aged man with dark rimmed glasses, blue T-shirt and charcoal gray pullover. And behind me, as usual, is the North Austin skyline. At Indeed, our mission is to help people get jobs. This is what gets us out of bed in the morning and what keeps us going all day. And what powers that mission is people. Here to Help is a look at how experience, strength, and hope inspires people to want to help others, and helping others is also about looking at the world with a new lens, and with every guest, we aim to challenge old assumptions and new ideas. Here to Help started back in the spring of 2020 at the very start of the pandemic. And one of the major themes that has emerged through all of these conversations is the inequitable impact that the pandemic has had on women in the workforce. In previous conversations, guests have talked about challenges that women face from juggling caregiving responsibilities to navigating virtual work environments. Now here we are, it's March of 2023, and we are once again recognizing and celebrating Women's History Month. And as we look back on women's accomplishments throughout history, at the same time, we have to acknowledge the struggles that women continue to face today as we work towards a more equitable future. My guest today is Jen Ngozi. Jen is the founder of NetWerk, a platform on a mission to help 1 million women get promoted by 2030. As a first-generation immigrant with parents that didn't work corporate jobs, Jen was underpaid and underemployed for many years. Despite struggling with the unwritten rules of the workplace, Jen was able to not only secure promotions, but have an award-winning career developing future leaders across the country at Big Four and Fortune 500 firms before launching NetWerk in 2018. Today, we'll explore why we must educate, enlighten, and empower professionals who identify as women or non-binary to break the cycle of underemployment. Jen, thank you so much for joining me today.

- Hello, Chris. Thank you for having me.

- Let's start where we always start these conversations. How are you doing today right now?

- I'm doing great. It's Women's History Month, so that alone just lights a fire in me. It's a constant reminder of why I'm doing what I'm doing, and I feel honored that not only do I get this platform but I get a place to share what we're doing in our mission at NetWerk.

- Well, let's start by helping folks who might not be familiar with NetWerk. You know, explain to us what NetWerk is all about.

- Yeah, so NetWerk is an online community. It's a platform, and it was built around women getting to the next level in their career. It's something I founded when I was at the stage of my career where I was getting a lot of experience, I was super excited to be in the workplace and to be having all these wonderful experiences, but I wasn't getting promoted and I had to stop and take a look at, you know, my career, my journey and what was missing. And NetWerk is a replica and it's a reflection of everything that I wish I had on my journey. Access to resources, access to a community, access to people who are struggling with the same things I was and helping to fill those gaps that took me between being paid and having a job but being promoted and getting to the next level in my career. So we are online community, offer different resources. We offer different programs that help women can get to the next level in their careers.

- We're going to dive into that in a little bit, but I want to back up a little and talk about your background and how you got here. So your parents immigrated to the US when you were very young, and as I mentioned before, your parents didn't have corporate jobs. So can you talk a little bit about what that meant for you as you started entering the professional workforce?

- Yeah, it meant so much and to sum it up, it really meant that I knew I had a lot of catching up to do. You know, my parents were very hardworking and they instilled that traditional Nigerian values of go to school, get a great job, have that security, but the only problem is they didn't have a lot of concrete ways to show me how to go about doing that. So a lot of the advice that I got was to put my head down and work really hard, and I did that, but I also realized that that's not enough, unfortunately, to get ahead. So what I realized going into the workplace is that I was constantly playing catch up and a lot of times I just felt like everyone else got this playbook and somehow I missed that playbook and I had to kind of invent that playbook on my own by learning from people.

- So that concept you've talked about as the unwritten rules and so there are things that you don't learn in school that maybe when you look around, it seems like they're obvious to everyone else, but as you said, when you showed up, there was a gap, and this is one of the things that you're trying to address with NetWerk. So can you talk about what some of these unwritten rules that you've observed are and why especially women need to understand these in order to navigate?

- Yeah, there's so many, and the crazy part is, for a long time, I didn't even realize that there were rules and that I was breaking almost all of them. But one of those rules, for example, is that everything is negotiable. For some reason, a lot of women, a lot of people in general just get into the workplace thinking that, like for example, when you get a job, you should be happy. You're out of college, like you don't have a lot of experience, so just take something. But I realized that even coming out of college, I could always negotiate my salary and not only my salary, vacation is negotiable, time off is negotiable, benefits and perks, those are all negotiable. But unfortunately, if you're not taught that, you just assume that you have to take it and you almost feel greedy, like, I'm getting money, I don't have any experience, why am I asking for more? That is an unwritten rule. Another unwritten rule is that when you're in meetings, I know a lot of times, women, we don't like to interrupt, we don't want to be seen as being very aggressive. So we tend to sit back and wait for others to speak and then maybe we'll throw in our two cents after, or we'll wait for everyone else to talk first 'cause we're trying to be kind and then we don't ever get our voices heard and that doesn't make you look like a leader in a meeting. It makes you blend in and not stick out. So that's another unwritten rule that I observed is that there's a way to behave in meetings. But unfortunately, a lot of us that are the first generation, our family to work corporate jobs, we're finding out that the hard way when we're told that we don't look engaged. When in reality, we're trying to be polite.

- So can you talk about, you know, within your career, you were sort of showing up at work, doing your thing, trying to learn how to navigate and progress, and then at some point, there must have been some epiphany or some pivotal moment that said, I need to do something here. Can you describe what was the spark? What happened that made you decide to form NetWerk?

- Yeah, well, Chris, there were a lot of those mini moments that added up to get me to launching NetWerk. But one moment I'll tell you about that really stood out was I was working in HR and you know, being in HR, you have a lot of access to a lot of data. So one day, I was being curious and I was like, I wonder what everyone else in my role was making, just curious. And unfortunately, but fortunately, I had access to the data and the portal where I can look up salaries and I looked up my salary compared to my peers that were in the exact same position, the exact same title as me, and literally my jaw was on the floor. I could not believe what I saw and how much less I was making compared to my peers and I couldn't unsee it. But it definitely spark in me that enough is enough, it is time to advocate for yourself, it is time to get out there and invest in getting to the next level. And it's time to help other women too because I know that I'm not the only one. I did notice a pattern that there were a lot of women, unfortunately, in my department that were underpaid doing the exact same role as our male counterparts.

- Did you discuss this with HR, with the rest of the team and what was their response and how did that conversation go?

- Yes, so my next step, so when I found out this, I called a meeting with my leader and he was in HR as well, and I asked him about it and I'll never forget what he told me. It was very simple. He said, "Jen, you didn't ask." And I couldn't even be mad at him because he was right. I did not ask. I didn't realize that it was simply asking for more during the negotiation process, I had this assumption because I was new to HR, I didn't have any experience and I was unemployed at the time because I relocated for a job and school at the same time. So with all those factors, I figured, let me just take this job, it'll be great experience to get my foot in the door. But once I got my foot in the door, I realized that it's more than just getting your foot in the door, it's also being paid enough to keep you and to motivate you to keep doing your job. So the bottom line told me that you didn't ask and I could not argue with him. I couldn't say anything and I had no one to blame but myself because I didn't ask.

- So we might get to this later, but since you're talking about this, obviously, there's a lot of things that you're working on to help women figure out how to advocate for themselves, how to show up, how to understand what is available to them, what is the responsibility of the organization though to not necessarily put all of the burden on women to have to do all of these things?

- I think that is a wonderful question, and I wish more organizations would ask that question. And I think it boils down to transparency. We have to normalize people talking about how much they make. I know that back in the days, that was such a taboo talk conversation, but if there's a universal pay scale that you just hold yourself accountable as an organization to, then no one's ending up feeling hurt when they find out that others are underpaid. I don't think companies understand how much that demotivates people when you find out that you're working equally as hard, you're putting in the same amount of hours, but you're being underpaid. So yes, we should promote and advocate for ourselves, but it would also help to have that transparency from companies as well.

- So in this sort of list of the unwritten rules, so, you know, you mentioned talking about salary and it is something that I think more people are recognizing, certainly, their rights to talk about those things and in some cases, maybe even a responsibility. So I guess the question is, why is it important to normalize having something that used to be considered private, which is how much money you make, be something that is part of a broader conversation?

- Right. A number of reasons. It's important because when people are paid equally, they work harder, they're more motivated, they're more likely to raise their hands and take on those extra projects. And it's also a way of showing people that you care about them. You know, I feel like my company has my back if they are flat out telling me, "Hey, this is the range for this role, which I'm so excited by the way because I'm noticing a lot of companies are doing this in their job ads, and I think that's definitely a step in the right direction. But making that just the normal is sharing that information so people know it's also important because you also want people to continue that pattern and support the younger generation that are now entering the workforce. I'll give you an example when I was hiring in a hiring position, I remember sometimes interviewing candidates that wouldn't come back and ask for more money and I'd felt really bad. I'd want to like whisper them, "Hey, this is how much you can make, just ask." You know, but I wouldn't do that, but I'd make up for it when I referred my friends into the companies that I work for, I would let them know the range. So when they're negotiating their salary, they have an idea of where to start. So that's something that you can do with your network, but if we can just do that period, then it would make the workplace a more positive environment and one that people are more likely to support each other.

- Yeah, we've spent quite a bit of time talking about this at Indeed and we've published our ranges both internally and externally for some time. And one of the important reasons for pay ranges and having clear, you know, not just maximums but minimums as well, is that given the fact that it is very empirical that there is pay inequity in the broad professional world, if you pay people based on something that's relative to what they were making somewhere else as opposed to what a company has decided is an appropriate pay range, you're pretty much guaranteed to perpetuate that inequity. Women coming in will always get, you know, a couple percent more than they were making before, which is going to be less than other people. And so that's something that, obviously, we think is important. We spend quite a bit of time talking to other folks about it as well. I guess in a universe where that isn't universal and where someone coming into an organization can't necessarily rely on having that kind of data available, what can women do to ensure that they're being paid fairly and how do you advise someone to ask for a raise?

- Absolutely. That is a great question. The first step was to do your homework. Every time I used to apply for a job after the fact, after I became aware, I made sure that there's so many platforms out there that you can check your salary range based on your location, based on how many years of experience. I'd recommend never going into an interview or even a conversation about a job without having a general idea of how much people are making in that role. And another thing is don't be shy about reaching out to someone in that same position at the company that you're interviewing for on LinkedIn. I've done that a few times. Just introducing myself and letting them know, "Hey, I'm in the process of interviewing for this role, what do you think about it?" And then somewhere in that conversation, I'll drop in, "By the way, this is the salary range I was thinking about, asking for, what do you think about that?" And I'll pause and I'll see what they have to say. So that is kind of letting people help you, letting them know that you've done your homework, but I also want to make sure that I'm coming in at a great place. So you'd be surprised people were willing to help you if you're willing to have those kind of conversations. But asking, doing your research and then flat out asking. If you're interviewing for a role, now, it is not unheard of to flat out ask, I really enjoying this job I think. If things continue to go in the right direction, I see myself moving forward. I'm curious to know what is the salary range for this position. And a lot of recruiters nowadays would happily answer that question for you.

- So we've been focused on pay equity and that's obviously an important piece, but one of the things that's sort of noticeable in particular about the mission of NetWerk is that you're not just talking about pay equity, you're talking about getting women promoted. And so you have this stated mission to get 1 million women promoted by 2030. Can you talk about why that particular focus and what is the roadmap to getting a million women promoted look like?

- Yeah, why that particular focus is, we talk a lot about unemployment, so people not having jobs, but there isn't enough conversation about underemployment. And I know that is something that has touched me, it's touched a lot of people in my boat who are the first people in their family to try out corporate jobs and work in this type of space. So I think it's important to not only have a job that you're proud of and be employed, but also being employed in a way that matches where you are in your education and your training and getting to the next level. So in terms of our mission and how we plan to get there, the first step is truly accessibility. You know, when I graduated, one of my biggest problems where it was so difficult to find and access resources that were helping people to kind of learn what they needed to learn to get to that next level. So much was focused on here's how to find a job, here's how to interview for a job, here's how to pass the screening. And once you get there, it's almost like, okay, you figure it out, you know, you figure it out. And now I'm very thankful that we're at a time where information is out there and it's easy to put out there. So the number one way that NetWerk provides that is by making our resources accessible. We make it very easy for people to access. We have a free career center that reaches many people that people can just dive in and get started on their own. The second is partnerships. That is a very aggressive goal and I would be kidding myself to believe that. On my own, I can sit here and focus on getting a million women promoted. But I realized very early on is that in order to really make things happen and in order to take things to that level, we need a community, we need support and we need people behind us. So we've partnered with a lot of organizations over the years, tapping into their community, doing joint trainings, doing joint workshops so that we can reach different audiences around the world. We have put together a lot of programs where we offer mentorship opportunities for people in order for them to get that community going. And then last but not least, we really, really rely on our community and their support. And it would be almost impossible to be where we are right now without our community's support. We have an active crowdfunding campaign that has allowed our community to support us, and it's still open. So we are always looking for ways and open to opportunities to partner and get our mission out there. So it's about making our community accessible. You don't need a lot to get started, you don't need to have this wonderful background or be super educated in order, we make everything easy. And so that anybody who is serious about getting to the next level in their career, they have somewhere to go because that was something that was missing for me when I started, is something that was easy and digestible and it felt like it was for me.

- So one of the things that we've heard a lot about over the last few years is throughout the pandemic, disproportionately women fell out of the workplace. They were much more likely to have childcare responsibilities or responsibilities at home or caring for aging or sick family members. The estimates today are that they're still roughly in the US about a million women who have not returned to the workforce. And so that's the situation that we have been in. We're now potentially staring down a looming recession and other economic challenges ahead. What advice do you have for women to equip themselves for the situation that we're in and what might be just ahead?

- Yeah, I think that's a great question. Definitely something to be keeping on our radars, and three steps. The first one I would say is tap into your network early. Don't wait until you need something from people to start reaching out and touching base with people that can support you on this journey. It's definitely, like I said earlier, with NetWerk, with any journey that you're going through in your career, don't feel like you have to do that alone. Like normalize asking for help and reaching out to your support system. But it's very important that people don't just hear from you when you need something for them. So an easy way to do that is go through your LinkedIn or your email contacts and ask yourself, "Well, who's in my industry who can possibly support me on this journey? Have they heard from me recently?" If not, you can send them a note letting them know, "Hey, can we catch up? It's been a while." You know, wish them happy birthday, congratulate them on life milestones, but do something so that you're checking in with people that can possibly support you on this journey. And then also, it's a great time to get out and shake hands and meet people in your industry that you don't already know. It's never right or wrong time to network. And even if you have a job, there's always this misconception that you have to start networking when you need a job. But you can start networking in bits and pieces throughout the journey. Second step is to build out your portfolio. It's always good to have samples of your work and anything that will market what you can do before you need it. So I'll give you an example when I realized that, hey, you know, I may want to do NetWerk full-time, I want this to be my mission, I want to focus on it. I started to consolidate work that I've done in terms of doing workshops, training people, leadership trainings that I've done in the past. I've started to pile those up almost a year plus before going out on my own. I didn't wait for me to be out there and start thinking, okay, what did I do? What did I do that can help? Like, I started to slowly build those pieces together. So building up your portfolio, making sure that you understand the numbers. Like, if you helped your team reduce turnover by 10%, document that. If you helped grow your department by 45% in the past six months, document that. You want to make sure that you have details and tangible evidence of the way that you've supported your organization. And you don't want to start that again when you need it. So you want to be building that little by little over time. And then the last thing that you can do is also understand that, you know, now more than ever, people are pivoting left and right in their careers. So if you're in one of those industries that you're like, "Oh, this could be dying in the next five or 10 years, or technology may come and take my job," then you have to start thinking about, like, the experience that I've gotten, what else can I do with it? What can this translate to? I'll give you an example. I was working in HR for a while. I was also doing a lot of consulting. So I thought to myself, "Well, over time, if technology takes HR roles then I can go off and do training and development or I can go off and do marketing, I can go off and do communications, PR, crisis communication, because we do that in HR. So when you're thinking about your career, always ask yourself, if my industry is irrelevant tomorrow, what can I go off and do? What am I doing? What are those pockets and themes of work that I'm doing in my current role that I can go and take off and do elsewhere? If the economy goes downhill and my job is no longer relevant, what more can I do? So to summarize, you want to tap into your network early, make sure that you're reaching out, make sure that you're getting those connections. Don't wait until it's time to make a ask before you start reaching out to people. Make sure you're on their radar before you need anything. Secondly, you want to build your portfolio before you even need it. Make sure you have the data points to back up how amazing you are. And then last but not least, you always want to be making sure that you're understanding your transferrable skills and where the industry is heading in your field.

- As I said at the start, it's Women's History Month and now it's time, kind of like the previous month in Black History Month where a lot of companies are going to come out and say a lot of things to make people think that they're aware of and conscious of the the issues and that they're somehow supporting them. What are some of the things that you're not going to be hearing coming from companies when they talk about that that should be part of the conversation in particular about underemployment and inequitable pay and what would you want companies to be doing right now to actually be really recognizing what this month is all about?

- I love the way you phrased that question, Chris. What am I not going to be hearing companies say? A lot of times what I'm not going to hear is actual tangible programs that companies are launching to promote women. For example, our company launched this new initiative where we're taking the 10% of the most underemployed women in our department and we're pairing them up with a mentor so that the mentor can help them develop their weakness areas so that within the next year, we can see these 10% women be promoted at the level they should be at. So programs like that, that are specific, programs that are tangible, programs that are not likely very costly because most people want to help and want to see women get ahead in their careers. That is something that I likely won't hear, but I would love to, is tangible programs that companies are doing and then also cultural shifts and cultural updates that companies are doing to promote a more inclusive leadership role. Like for example, hey, look at our Leadership team, you know, it's not very diverse in here. Why don't we have a leadership development program and let's go and target women and let's target women of color, or let's target women with disabilities who may be underemployed compared to where we believe they can be. Let's pair them up, let's mentor them, let's send them to a week long camp where they're updating their leadership skills and we are matching them up with world-class trainers and we're investing in them, like we say we do on social media, but we're actually showing that we care about these people that we're hiring no matter what they look like. Those are some things that I would love to see companies do during Women's History Month.

- That's great. So in the sort of the vein of you're trying to create opportunity for people to learn the things that you didn't know when you were entering the workforce. If you look back, what's something that you wish that you had learned earlier in your career that you think might have helped you?

- Yeah, wow, so many things. So many things. But one thing that stands out to me the most is for some reason, maybe, I don't know, maybe it's the immigrant in me, but I have this belief that asking for help made me look stupid. Like if I raise my hand and tell people that I need help, then they're going to think I'm incompetent. They're going to figure it out that I don't belong here and that I don't know anything. But I realized that like I wasted so many time, so many hours just putting my head down, trying to figure things out and trying to guess and like, well, maybe this is it or like, but ask for help. Ask for help. Like if you're someone who's like that and you have those similar tendencies, understand that there's so many people that are out there to help you. Yes, you're going to come across those people who are going to be like, why are you here? You know, you should have known that by now. But understand that my chapter one and my journey, my starting point didn't look like everyone else's. So I had to spend time playing catch up and learning things and that's okay. It's okay to admit that I'm a little behind and I need some help. I learn fast and I get it and I can take that information and run with it. But just that asking for me, I wish I would've done more of that and let people help me. Eventually, I got into mentors and I saw how much it made a difference in my career and my life. But in the very beginning, it's almost like you take this pride in figuring it out by yourself and doing it by yourself. And that's one quality I wish I didn't have is that stubbornness and that willingness to accept help because there are a lot of helpful people out there if you want to be helped.

- So a lot of amazing guidance and advice so far. But to get, I guess, maybe super practical and tangible, you know, one of the things that you talk about is being your own biggest advocate. And so what does that actually look like in practice and how can people who are listening, whether it's someone who's a woman who's trying to figure this out, or someone who is an ally and wants to be more helpful, how can someone put that directly into practice?

- Yeah, couple of ways. I'll talk about some things that I did that really worked for me. So eventually when I got out of my head, I started to put together plans, like what am I going to do to get up there? And one thing that really worked for me is mentorship and sponsorship. They're different, but I'll start off with a mentor. I think it's very important to not be afraid to ask. I know sometimes it can be very nerve wracking when you see someone who's doing really well at work to say, "Hey, would you mind mentoring me?" But I started doing that. There was a woman that I really admired in my role. She was a leader. She looked like me. She was a woman, and I was very proud to see how far she came in the company. And you know, I started getting to know her. I started to, you know, help her offer to do things for her at work. And then one day I just dropped it on her, "Hey, would you like to mentor me?" And she was very happy and she told me that, "Wow, no one's ever asked me to mentor them." And I thought to myself, "Wow, wow. Like, okay, no one's ever asked her, but you're like the only woman of color leader in our entire department." I would think that more people would go to her, but it's easy to make the assumption that she has her plate full, that she wouldn't want to mentor me 'cause other people have already bothered her. But she said that no one has ever asked her to mentor her. And that really stood out to me that if you want something, there are people out there that are willing to help you, but a lot of times, people don't make the ask. And she was able to help me get from step to step and really just overcome a lot in the company at the time 'cause I didn't understand Big Four consulting, so that was very helpful to have her in my corner. So ask, find someone who's doing really well that you want to be like, and ask them to mentor you. The next one is get people who can speak up for you in meetings and in rooms that you're not invited to yet. And that is also known as a sponsor. That was very important to me in my career too, having sponsors. And one thing I will note is don't be afraid to have sponsors that look nothing like you. I know women could be sometimes like want to clinging to women and only want to, you know, feel comfortable talking to women. There's sometimes this taboo, I don't want men to think anything, so I don't want to reach out to men, but please let that thought process go. And even if the person is the opposite sex, a different race from you, you would be surprised that help can come in all shapes, colors, and sizes. There's not a one size fits all. If you're Latinx, if you are African-American, don't feel like your mentor, your sponsor has to be someone that looks exactly like you. Anyone can support you on your journey to leadership. They don't necessarily need to look like you. Some of my best mentors, honestly, they look like you Chris. So you would be surprised where you'll get support and accept support where support is. So that's another tip, be there. Another thing is to be highly visible in the work that you do. A lot of times women, we get nervous that people are going to notice us too much. We don't want to call too much attention to ourselves. So we'll tend to hide behind other people and like let them be the face of whatever is going on. If you're very serious about getting promoted and getting ahead, you cannot hide behind your work. You have to stand up for the things that you do, take credit and share them with people and tell people that this is what I'm working on. Give them updates. Don't wait for them to ask you for an update. Volunteer to share those updates. And if you're a leader and you're someone on a team that leads a team, understand that a lot of women are not always going to be comfortable sharing their accomplishments. So create that space where you invite people to share their accomplishments and you ask them, "Hey, let's do a round robin and everyone tells me one thing they accomplished this week." That way you're forcing women to speak up for themselves and to highlight the work that they're doing because unfortunately, that skill does not come naturally to a lot of people. So find a mentor, advocate for yourself, be highly visible, tell people about the work that you're doing, share it proudly. Don't let people take credit for your work. And if you're a leader, invite women and people that are a little bit more hesitant to share their accomplishments, create a safe space for them to do that.

- So we've spent quite a bit of time talking about, I guess, how to better identify and understand the rules and to be more comfortable at navigating those rules. I guess for someone like me in my position, how do we rewrite the rules, right? I mean, to some degree, it's important for people to understand how things work and how to navigate. But some of these rules actually don't make any sense and are set up to create advantages and favorable conditions to some groups over others. So how do we go about just throwing it all away and building something that makes more sense for everyone?

- Yeah, oh, I think-

- It's a small question, I know, but-

- Yeah, no, I think it's a very important question and I think it definitely starts at your level and then on its way down. One of that is like, let's normalize, like, calling people out when they do things that aren't not well, and not just like passively saying things or just keeping it to yourself. Like sometimes there's this unwritten rule that you can't address things right away, and instead you have to go through this formal evaluation process and tell them six months later during a performance evaluation. But when I was coming out of college, my first job out of college, I remember someone just telling me, you know, those pants you're wearing, they're not good for work. And I really appreciated that because they could have just talked about me behind my back and they could have just kept it to themselves. Like, it's kind of more normal to do at work. No one wants to call you out, but sometimes you need that, you need someone to tell you right away that this is not okay. A lot of people don't get it, but when we create this environment where it's taboo to correct people's behavior, then it keeps, it allows them to continue making that mistake over and over again. So like, if you're a leader, you're someone that's watching the team. If you see someone make an innocent mistake or something as simple as, I had coworkers tell me, Jen, go home, like, it's getting late. Do you know everyone went to happy hour and you're still working? You know, that's an opportunity for you to bond with the team and you're working so you're missing that opportunity. Yes, you're getting work done and that's really good, but you're missing that and that connections that you're making, those connections that you're making a happy hour, that's far more important than any work that you're going to do. I've had so many coworkers see me miss events, but they didn't say anything. But again, it's cultural because in my culture, it's not, it's frowned upon to mix business with pleasure. So you're often taught to keep distance from coworkers, but I had someone correct me on that had they just ignored that behavior and let me continue going, then, again, it's ignorance, but I know that now and now when I see people do it, I'll let them know, "Hey, don't skip those optional work events." They're not really optional, although they say they are. But that's an example of, like, how, create that kind of culture and that community where people feel safe and comfortable getting and receiving feedback. And it's not coming in a punitive way. Like, Hey, you've been written up for this, but I see that you struggled with this, I want to help you out. There's no repercussions. I'm just telling you, helping you out, looking out for you. You know, so that's an example of a way to do that.

- So as we're getting ready to wrap up, I don't want to leave before asking, if folks are interested to learn more about NetWerk, where can they go?

- Yeah, they can check out our website. It's netwerkmovement.com and that's NetWerk spelled N-E-T-W-E-R-K. The easiest way to get involved with our community is subscribing and getting access to our free career center. We have over 20 resources that you can just get started with. With networking templates, earlier today, we talked about reaching out to your network before you meet them. So we create templates for you to be able to do that. We talked about transferrable skills and understanding what careers that you can pivot to. We have a guide to help you understand what you're doing and what fields that can translate to, but we have a lot of different things to help you get started in your journey. So if you check out our website, that's the easiest way to get started. We also have a open crowdfunding campaign. We're always accepting donations and support from people that want to support our mission. We've done really well so far, and we're excited about our community and everything that we're doing. So definitely, invite you to join our community. Easiest way to do that is netwerkmovement.com and then you can also follow us on all of our social media platforms.

- So as a final question, I always ask the same question here. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Looking back at the past few years and everything that we've been through together with all of the challenges and many of the things that we've talked about today, what in all of that experience has left you with some hope for the future?

- Yeah, a lot of it is the energy and the fire that I see in this generation, this new generation that's rising, that's coming out of college, that's entering the workforce. I do a lot of these events and I travel a lot and I get to meet a lot of amazing people because of the work I do. And it is so exciting seeing the women that I meet, the fire, the passion inside of them, the fact that they have just goals that are just through this moon. And that is very inspiring to me that, you know, this is all going somewhere and that, you know, everything that I, you know, went through to get me to where I am, it makes me smile when I turn around and I see like, wow, times are changing and this new generation is so excited and they are ready and they're going to do a lot of damage. So I hope you guys are ready.

- Well, Jen Ngozi, thank you so much for joining me today for sharing your experience and your wisdom. And thank you so much for everything that you do to try to help make the world a better place.

- I appreciate that. It's my pleasure, Chris.